Based off some of my research this spring into open chips thusfar everyone is using asic &c software from the 80's

sweet! The next step is to be able to create an affordable, handmade ultra clean room mod for your garage. Then we're talking big leagues 😉

@rick_777 @theruran You also need to establish safety procedures and waste policies before you get bigger. You don't want to contaminate your backyard with a hundred gallons of toxic TCE in a lab accident.

The dark side of digital revolution - Many standard safety procedures we take for granted didn't exist at all in early days, and almost all the big-name firms, such as Fairchild, National, HP, had accidents back in the days. Silicon Valley remained the most polluted place in US.


@niconiconi @rick_777 @theruran The old MOS facility in Pennsylvania is a Superfund Site.

@drwho @rick_777 @theruran Yes, the huge 250-gallon underground concrete storage tank full of TCE at MOS/Commodore had a massive leak in 1974, million dollars have been spent to clean it up and today the site is still not entirely safe and continue being monitored by the EPA.

Pretty much a disaster but still interesting history: semspub.epa.gov/work/03/221846

C128 engineer Bill Herd said he didn't know the tank leaked and parked at the wrong side, and his car was completely contaminated in the cleanup process.

@niconiconi @drwho @rick_777 well the alternate option is collectivization of the semiconductor manufacturing facilities

@theruran @niconiconi @rick_777 I'm hoping microscale rod logic is feasible. Hopefully, way less in the way of toxic chemicals will be involved.

Got any resources on this? It's the first time I hear about it. From what I can understand it's basically gate logic using MEMS, right?
@theruran @niconiconi

@rick_777 @theruran @niconiconi And, of course, anything by Eric K. Drexler. He figured out the physics originally.

@deejoe @theruran @niconiconi @rick_777 Hopefully, less of a need to use compounds in manufacturing that'll kill everyone in the facility before the contamination alarm has a chance to go off.


are we just wishing, or do we have some reason to think there's a completely different way to make tiny things?

I don't know there is, but am usually happy to collect another TIL.

@theruran @niconiconi @rick_777

@deejoe @theruran @niconiconi @rick_777 Technically, we're already using the early stages of nanotech. Samsung is fabbing 8nm chips for its phones. Samsung and TSMC are already fabbing 5nm circuitry. Server class processor cores are already in the 6-7 nm range, which is why we've got processors with 32 and 64 cores on a single die.

On the bio side, we've been patching the DNA of bacteria to synthesize insulin, HGH, interferons, and the vaccine for hepatitis-b. That's also nanotech - modifying DNA to a specific end, and using bacteria to fabricate custom proteins in bulk.

IBM has been using scanning-tunneling microscopes to manipulate individual atoms for twenty-some years now (fuck me...)

Here's a paper from last year about using individual atoms to build geartrains: arxiv.org/pdf/1802.01802.pdf

We've gone beyond wishing. We're at the "let's play around to figure out the basics" stage, and have been for a while.

then again, if we go the way of nanonachines, the risk of a nanotech outbreak is the same and the consequences could be the same or worse. Are nanomachines biodegradable?
@deejoe @theruran @niconiconi

@rick_777 @deejoe @theruran @niconiconi It really depends.

If we're talking purpose-built nano which does only one thing, like push iron atoms around, or build geartrains or something, it's highly unlikely. Sure, there are catastrophic failure modes (there always are) but they're not "eat the world," they're "hey, my knife fell apart."

It's not clear if it'd be possible to build self-replicating nano. I'm not entirely sure it's possible due to the difficulty involved in even fabbing the early generations. It's likely that the toolchain would be something like "Here's a breed of nano that makes a breed of nano that makes synthetic diamond sheets."

We also don't know how nano would have to be controlled. For the forseeable first few generations, it's probably going to use a bicameral architecture - the nano's just the toolkit, but it's controlled by an external (and probably much bigger) mechanism, like a full sized computer. Hit ^c, terminate the control program, and the swarm grinds to a halt because there's no number crunching on board, just a receiver for instructions.

Bionano should be biodegradable. The hacked bacteria we already use to manufacture synthetic hormones in bulk certainly are. Don't refresh their growth medium, stop feeding them, boil them, dump in a handful of drain cleaner crystals, and you kill the entire tank.

@drwho @deejoe @theruran @niconiconi Yeah, my main concern is nanotoxicity. Take the simplest form of nanostructure we've manufactured: Carbon nanotubes. Just like asbestos, you inhale that stuff and you get emphysema.

I wonder if we'll be able to create chips using 3D printing? :blobthinking:
@niconiconi @drwho

@rick_777 @theruran @niconiconi Maybe? I don't know.

I know that we're definitely at the stage of building 3d integrated circuitry: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-di

Vias are being used in integrated circuitry to not only link layers (each layer being an entire processor core), but as heat pipes for cooling of same.

If we can get process control down to the point where we're working at the 5-10 nm level, we might be able to. I don't know, though.

@rick_777 @theruran @niconiconi @drwho What you are thinking of WRT 3d printing (additive printing) is standard procedure in chip making.

Start with a Si substrate, grow your layer with either diffusion or direct deposition, etch your extra material away, throw in some implant here and there, and repeat a thousand times.

Here's a video describing the process (in a very simplified manner)


@drwho @niconiconi @rick_777 @theruran There is a MOS site in the Phoenix area that is also a Superfund Site. Many of my coworkers used to live there, and by sheer luck do not have major health problems.


yeah, lack of awareness about this sort of stuff sets my teeth on edge

@rick_777 @theruran

Yikes! :blobfearful:
Please tell me that today's electronics industry uses safer chemicals for their processes.
@niconiconi @theruran


like, consider: the integrated circuit predates the EPA

@niconiconi @theruran

This explains all the gas masks in classic Cyberpunk concept art.
@niconiconi @theruran

@theruran I'm an engineer in semiconductors ans MEMS fabrication.


Producing an IC outside of a cleanroom is amazing. 👍

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