Follow

Anger USPOL 

It makes me angry that these fools stole the Type O Negative Vinnland flag, and corrupted it to mean respresent some self serving alternate history....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland_

Anger USPOL 

@thegibson oh my..Bastardized it

re: Anger USPOL 

@thegibson "The Punisher" creator can relate :sadcowblob:

re: Anger USPOL 

@Mnemonic That's the one that really puzzles me... I mean they clearly don't know the character... they just wanted the hyperstylized Totenkopf.

They do this every time... they steal iconography and corrupt it... Literally in their crypto phase... so that people don't see it as clearly evil.

I despise what they do to everything they touch.

re: Anger USPOL 

@thegibson It's the curse of being naturally cool: corrupting posers. :flan_goth:

re: Anger USPOL 

@thegibson Even the swastika had a long history as a symbol predating the original rash of nazis.

I wonder if some sociologist has written a paper about fascism and the appropriation of symbols. It seems like that’s a “thing”.

@Mnemonic

re: Anger USPOL 

@vortex_egg @thegibson @Mnemonic I feel like I've come across some books about that topic, but I can't remember now. Will look into it.

re: Anger USPOL 

@erosdiscordia @thegibson @Mnemonic I don’t know if it’s the one you are thinking of, but I can only imagine this has a chance of touching on the topic. I keep meaning to read it sometime.

rushkoff.com/books/aleister-ad

Nazis, USPOL 

@vortex_egg @thegibson @Mnemonic No it isn't, but that looks fascinating!

I've had to do an above-average amount of research on the psychology of fascism, and its semiotics, for the novels I'm writing. Periodically I gotta take a break, so the reading list is never done. And plenty of it is bullshit, too, but even that can be worth taking an informed peek at.

There is an undercurrent to what happens to people's minds in times like this. I can only suppose it's happened even before the Nazis, that was just an explosion into the overt.

Nazis, USPOL 

@erosdiscordia @vortex_egg @thegibson @Mnemonic
Watch the intro to the movie version of DaVinci code for a bunch of examples

Co-opting and trolling in memetic warfare goes back at least far enough for Satan to be Gaelicized and deified as "Swithin" then reintroduced to Catholicism canonized as a saint

It's really frustrating that liberals are so concerned with optics and narratives that they consistently give fascists any iconography that they piss on. There's a lot in Celtic culture that would be useful in building bridges with American Indian (who haven't asked for liberal help rebranding as Native American or Indigenous also those labels have different scopes) and other peoples, especially looking at trickster deities and their relationships to nature and the extent to which isolated pockets of pre-Christian Europe resisted Romanization and subsequent waves of imperialism. We need to rediscover local narratives of resistance everywhere on the globe so that people born into the myth of whiteness understand that there are alternatives to the seemingly forced choice between complicity and appropriation

re: Nazis, USPOL 

@yaaps @erosdiscordia @vortex_egg @thegibson @Mnemonic

@yaaps I had difficulties following your trail of thought if there was any, but let me try to respond in quality.

First off, the DaVinci Code is a work of fiction, with its own re-interpretation of occultism and religious sects. See: The Lord of the Rings, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman, etc. It's fiction interpreting history and a cultural context that may or may not be well researched by the writer.

Second, 'Swithin' sounds more Anglo-Saxon than Gaelic (I can read Irish Gaelic, Old Irish and Old English, we shall later see why). A quick wiki search in fact turns up an Anglo-Saxon bishop by the name Swithun. Nothing Gaelic, and definitely nothing Celtic about that. Anglo-Saxons were not Celts, they were Germanic people. The More You Know.

Thirdly, I have a bigger issue with your claim of a 'Liberal re-branding of American Indians as Natives/Indigenous'. I think you have your hat on backwards when you claim this. In fact, the branding of 'Indians' come from a time of geographical and cultural confusion as of what continent European colonisers were walking on. I do not wish to discuss the cultural context of that era as it is not relevant, I believe. That said, I think it shares much with what my next point.

The fact that the expression 'American Indian' survives even in contemporary speech reflects a white America centrist view of the world, where one is unwilling to give a fuck about who these people are, what they call themselves and if they have a culture or not. Because all that matters to 'us' are 'us', both on an individual and on a group level. They are just 'American Indians', as if they had anything to do or in common with the people living in actual India. But who cares, right, only I matter. See the fictitious myth of the Wild West. This is the tragedy of the United States as a nation to this day, and why a lot of contemporary Europeans dislike American tourists and the US.

Back to Celts and Native Americans: These two people, if we can even refer to Native American cultures as 'one people', which we cannot but I am simplifying for your sake, have nothing in common culturally, linguistically and in belief systems with Indians, who are also not a single 'people'. I would go as far as to say, as a student of comparative mythology and linguistics that Indians, the ones living in India that is, have more in common with Celtic cultural heritage with their tripartite mytho-social systems of warrior, priestly and farmer casts (see the works of Georges Dumézil).

Trickster gods are present everywhere, and geographically connected cultures have influenced each other in significant ways. Persian beliefs of Zoroastrianism and Mithraism have surely found their ways into early Christianity (dying and returning fire-god who is bringing the new grain of the year and who is one-and-three -- does that sound familiar?) I would, however, find drawing a connection between Native American mythology and Celtic myths a far-fetched idea.

Why not compare the courtly manners of Byzantine to the social-traditions to Eskimos next? I think your notion comes from the reading of (or reading about) the book A Hero With a Thousand Faces, a very very harmful book of mythology that has been widely read by laymen, and a study which has been rebuked and criticised heavily even at the time of its original publishing. It is simplistic and tangential. Not a good guide if you are interested in these topics.

As a side-note, I would highlight that you should differentiate in your writings about Continental Celtic cultures and that of Insular Celts. They interacted with the Roman expansion and later on Christianity in different ways (and in different times), and we have widely differing surviving archaeological and literary evidence of these cultures.

Lastly, as I see you are keen to embrace the victim-hood narrative, there were peoples contained in the geography of Europe (including the British Isles), whom the migrating waves of Indo-European (Celtic, Germanic, Slavic) tribes pushed into assimilation and extinction. So even your victims of imperialism had their own victims, in their own times. And probably others even before that, to those lesser known, ancient and mostly forgotten people. This is the bottomless pit of such way of thinking.

re: Nazis, USPOL 

@egret
Likewise

First, you're right that DaVinci Code is fiction. The examples in the character's presentation in the movie are only as good as they can be verified through actual sources

Second, you're probably right about Swithin. My source is a book I read over 20 years ago. I haven't tried to find a copy to check that I remember it properly because I'm not defending a thesis presentation

Third, no culture is monolithic and historical interactions are complex. American Indian has become a legal term with a specific definition and status in the US courts, despite it's unfortunate etymology. First People and First Nations are common self-referents. Opinions within and between communities vary. Elders and those living on or near the reservations tend to prefer American Indian, despise indigenous and have mixed reactions to native. Native American is well accepted further from the reservation and when including Central and South American Peoples, while indigenous is global in scope. I still think an attitude of respect is more important than specific vocabulary, but I'm old

Since you admittedly missed the point, let me state it simply, especially since you've provided ample evidence, yourself. Appropriation and white supremacy are both symptoms of disconnection from our past. Europe has its own history and mythology and there are abundant sources to inspire kinship to values other than imperialism, and certainly alternatives to the continuity of empires that culminates in American Exceptionalism. If we can avoid nazis pissing on everything, it might be useful to hear those stories more often

Unrelated, correlating themes between non-communicating cultures will happen. It doesn't imply a lack of distinction between those cultures, just common humanity. That makes it useful to observe
@erosdiscordia @vortex_egg @thegibson @Mnemonic

re: Anger USPOL 

@erosdiscordia @vortex_egg @thegibson
They appropriated everything, from earlobe design, to vrill, to everything that suited the means of propaganda. Lots of angry books from here (Dutch) and other occupied countries. Everything "cool" was incorporated into the propaganda, like obvious, did hitler or himmler look even like their "Aryan" master race!?

I can rant on, but I just stop and save my energy for the virtual meeting!

re: Anger USPOL, Nazis 

@Mnemonic @vortex_egg @thegibson You make an important point, though!

It's like the Nazis were trying to make a "grand unified theory of everything", except with people/sociology, not with just scientific fields.

I think there's a temptation to retroactively believe the Nazis did it cynically, just for control. I think they actually got sucked up into the intoxication of believing it could be done, and essentially trying to erase those who didn't fit into the theory.

The danger of applying theory too heavily to humans is that it can lead to brands of fascism. I even see it in gender studies, obviously -- it's what leads to Terfs.

re: Anger USPOL, Nazis 

@erosdiscordia @vortex_egg @thegibson
Yeah just read up (or maybe you have ;) not preaching) on Mengele (angel of death) and what kind of bullshit articles he wrote before becoming the monster in the flesh.

If it wasn't real, and like I would post his articles, peeps would be highfiving me for my abstract humor, so absurd...

re: Anger USPOL, Nazis 

@Mnemonic @vortex_egg @thegibson I haven't read anything he published. Maybe I should. Ugh, it was hard enough to get through Goebbels. I threw a book across the room once.

re: Anger USPOL 

@thegibson I used to have one until the corruption happened. So I burnt it and poured one out for Steele.

re: Anger USPOL 

@thegibson There are... many things about what those people were wearing that made me really fucking angry.

I'm a bit cautious about posting my thoughts publicly, but omfg I'm still angry about shit like this.

re: Anger USPOL 

@pixelpaperyarn They are just doing what they have always done...

desecrate everything of value.

re: Anger USPOL 

@thegibson Yeah. I don't go to rage that easily when it comes to this stuff because there's not much I can do from here. There's just quite a bit of what I saw on Wednesday that hit some personal notes and left me with a pill I just can't swallow.

Anger USPOL 

@thegibson this is always what the Right does. They take culture and turn it to their ends, because it creates both a false history they can claim they're returning to and an illusion of broader support for their ideals

We need to stop letting them do it, by being savvier about media and "PR" (look at cDc's media ops and things like hashtag takeovers for examples of how effective denying people ownership of a symbol can be)

re: Anger USPOL 

@calcifer no disagreement here.

Anger USPOL 

@thegibson angering indeed. So much of Hindu and Roman iconography has been tainted by the same kind of people.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
hackers.town

A bunch of technomancers in the fediverse. Keep it fairly clean please. This arcology is for all who wash up upon it's digital shore.